[tridinski]

Zitat von Necon

Das geht aber auch in anderen Bereichen ohne Pulsdrift, also das muss nicht unter IAS sein.
Vor ca 2 Wochen mein langer Lauf. Nach km 3 war ich bei 138 mit Pace ~5:00 (starker Gegenwind). In dem Bereich 138-142 blieb ich bis km 10 bei ca ~5:00. Dann mit dem Wind gelaufen und die Pace fiel auf 4:50-4:55 mit Puls 140-143.

klar, du könntest auch mit Puls180 unterwegs sein und wenn bei dem Tempo dann Ende ist steuerst du nach Puls, läufst halt immer so dass der Puls bei 180 bleibt, wirst also langsamer. Das wäre aber kein "no cardiac drift", die Definition davon ist ja: gleichbleibender Puls bei gleicher Leistung. Also am Rad in Watt einfach zu bestimmen, beim Laufen wie in deinem Beispiel mit Gegen/Rückenwind, Gelände usw. etwas schwieriger.

Zitat von Klugschnacker

Gibt es wissenschaftliche Studien, welche den Vorteil sehr langsamer Grundlagenläufe belegen?

Ich meine nicht das übliche polarisierte Training, sondern noch niedrigere Intensitäten. Wir sprachen zuletzt über lange Läufe, die 60 Sekunden pro Kilometer langsamer sind als das LD-Wettkampftempo.

Ich würde mir das gerne anschauen und, falls ich die Studie(n) für gut gemacht halte, in einer Sendung darstellen. Es muss sich aber um Studien handeln, nicht um anekdotische Evidenzen einzelner Sportler oder Trainer.

Hier mal ein erster Versuch. Quelle triathlete.com Artikel The Training Secrets Behind the Norwegians’ Phenomenal Ironman Debuts (Paywall) wo Alan Couzens wie folgt analysiert:

Couzens explained that with an Ironman pace of ~3:40 min/km pace, we might expect to see a good proportion of his run volume at or faster than this pace in training. But the training data does not show this. Instead, it shows that two-thirds of his weekly run volume was actually performed in his Active Recovery Zone—that is, easy jogs at only about 80% of his Ironman race pace or 60% of his 5K race pace. Of his weekly run volume (from Strava), about 10 miles of it was at Ironman pace, about three miles of it was at tempo pace, and less than two miles of it was at threshold.

“For comparison, for a competitive amateur running 3:30 off the bike, this would be equivalent to doing the bulk of their run training at 6:15 min/km pace,” Couzens said.

Als Studie wird dazu angeführt a classic exercise physiology paper that was released by Sandra Harms and Robert Hickson in 1983 die zu dem Schluss kommt: low levels (intensities) of physical activity (approximately 50% VO2max or less) are sufficient to induce most of the total possible increases in mitochondria of fast-twitch and slow-twitch red muscles

that’s great if you’re able to run 50+ miles a week, but what about us age-groupers training half of that?” “The implication here is that if you don’t have the time to go as long, shouldn’t you just go harder? And I think this is how many (or most?) age-groupers train, especially on the run. At the risk of generalizing, I’d say the typical age-grouper, with a four-hour Ironman marathon to their name, is doing the bulk of their running in that upper Zone 2/lower Zone 3 range—that is, faster than their Ironman race pace. This would be equivalent to Gustav running 30-minute 10K pace for the bulk of his training!”

Couzens cited a study from 2014 in which Stephen Seiler and colleagues looked at this very question in time-crunched runners training only ~four hours per week. One group—the low intensity “polarized” group—did 73% of their training below 77% of maximum heart-rate. The higher intensity group adopted the more typical distribution and did more than half of their training above this mark. Despite training considerably harder, the high intensity group actually performed 1.4% worse than the lower intensity group.

So what’s the greatest thing for you to apply to your training? “Remember that the assumption that if we train at a higher intensity we get more aerobic benefit is fundamentally flawed,” Couzens said. “There is a ‘correct’ intensity for our easy sessions that gets us the maximal adaptation—and any energy expended above this point is wasted energy that could be better directed towards our higher intensity sessions. This is the lesson that Gustav and his coaching team totally get and, in my opinion, it’s a lesson that many age-groupers would benefit from adopting, even if they are not training at the same volumes or paces as the speedy Gustav.

@Klugschnacker, das sind noch nicht die Studien auf die du aus bist, ich weiss nicht ob es die gibt, aber ich halt sicher die Augen offen.